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Geoff Baker covers the Mariners for The Seattle Times. He provides daily coverage of the team throughout spring training, and during the season.

March 17, 2010 at 4:28 PM

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Bill James says Felix Hernandez should have won Cy Young: not as high on Mariners' chances this year

Posted by Geoff Baker

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The Mariners have taken the field for their pre-workout stretch ahead of tonight's game. We have the lineups for you on the opposite page.

Continuing with excerpts from our interview with legendary baseball researcher Bill James, currently a senior advisor with the Red Sox, we arrive at his opinions on Felix Hernandez and the Mariners. I should tell you, as you may have heard on Geoff Baker Live! last night (video below) that James hails from Kansas, just outside the Kansas City, MO. area, so he gets to plenty of Royals games. He was a big fan of Zack Greinke last year and yet, still feels Hernandez was a better pitcher and should have won the Cy Young Award.

That places James squarely in the minority of most sabermetric -- and mainstream media, for that matter -- analysts, who felt that ERA and even FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) gave Greinke the clear edge. In his new book, The Bill James Gold Mine 2010, James has a section devoted to his annual Young Talent Index, on which Hernandez is rated as the top "young talent" piece in the majors. Greinke comes in at No. 13, which is interesting, given how he topped Hernandez for the Cy Young Award last season.

Obviously, James sees something many of us don't. So, let's pick it up from there. Oh yeah, he's also not too bullish on Seattle's chances of winning the AL West this season. We'll get to that as well.

Q: SO, I'LL JUST GET RIGHT INTO IT. IN YOUR YOUNG TALENT INDEX, YOU NAME FELIX HERNANDEZ THE NO. 1 GUY AND HAVE ZACK GREINKE AS NO. 13. WHAT MAKES FELIX HERNANDEZ THE BEST YOUNG TALENT IN THE GAME AHEAD OF A CY YOUNG WINNER WHO BEAT HIM OUT LAST YEAR?

A: First of all, you have to understand, I'm a huge Zack Greinke fan. I live near Kansas City and everybody who knew me knew if Greinke was pitching, I'm going to the game. I'm a huge Greinke fan, but I'm not sure that he was better than Felix last year. I mean, Felix was awfully good. Felix, I think, is a year younger - a year and a half younger, or something like that, I believe he is. At some level, everything's in the math and I think if you combine the fact he's basically at the same talent level with the fact he's a year younger, then he just works out to have a higher "young talent" contribution.

Q: LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT. BECAUSE SOME OF THE NUMBERS LIKE FIP (FIELDING INDEPENDENT PITCHING)...AND I KNOW YOU'RE AWARE OF THEM...BUT EVEN ERA AND TRADITIONAL STUFF SHOWED ZACK GREINKE TO BE PRETTY FAR AHEAD OF HERNANDEZ. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HERNANDEZ WAS BETTER?

A: I'm not arguing with anybody else's numbers, but, the Mariners were 25-9 when Felix started last year. The Royals were 17-16 when Greinke started. And it was only a difference of 24 runs scored. The Mariners scored 149 runs in Felix's starts and went 25-9. The Royals scored 117 for Greinke and went 17-16. There's a difference in the bullpens of course. But then, the Mariner bullpen was struggling for some of the year and the Royals have (Joakim) Soria, so that's not the whole thing either. So, I'm not arguing with anybody else's numbers and I love Zack Greinke. But I'm not certain that Greinke is better than Felix. I think they were on the same level, or that Felix was an inch ahead.

Q: SO, BASED ON THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT, AND YOU'VE SEEN A LOT OF CY YOUNG SEASONS, HOW CY YOUNG CALIBER WAS HERNANDEZ LAST YEAR, EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T WIN THE AWARD?

A: I think he and Greinke were the two best. I think they both had Cy Young seasons in the same league. And when that happens, somebody can't win it. But I think they were both above the level of a traditional Cy Young winner. A normal Cy Young winner.

Q: WHAT DO THE MARINERS HAVE TO WATCH OUT FOR WHEN IT COMES TO FELIX HERNANDEZ? HISTORICALLY, WITH YOUNG PITCHERS AND INCREASING THEIR INNINGS TOTALS, THAT TYPE OF STUFF?

A: Well, that's right. The pitchers who win 300 games are not the guys who are great when they're 21. They're the guys who don't get to be great until they're 25 or 26. And the reason is, until you're 25, your arm is not fully mature. It may be more flexible and you may be able to throw harder, but it's not fully mature in terms of absorbing the impact. And there is a tendency to go crazy with those guys and burn them out. And we're smarter about that stuff than we were 20 years ago. But you don't want to be too cocky about how smart you are now either.

Q: SO NOW, WE'RE LOOKING AT YOUR "YOUNG TALENT INDEX" AND YOU HAVE CLIFF LEE WHO RAISED EYEBROWS. HE'S ALMOST 30, I BELIEVE, SO IS HE REALLY "YOUNG TALENT"?

A: He's not young, so it's a little bit of a misnomer. At a certain level, you're so good that you're probably going to be around for a while even though you're not truly young. Albert Pujols is about 30. But Albert Pujols is going to be around 10 more years because he's still good. So, in that sense, he's like a young guy. Cliff Lee is not Albert, but he's a guy who's good enough that he should be around a few years.

So, enough with that part of the interview. Let's get on to the Mariners and where James sees them going this year. You'd think that with Hernandez and Lee set for the rotation -- well, at least after the first five days in Lee's case -- that James would see some good things ahead. Well, not really.

Q: JUST LOOKING AT THE MARINERS, AND FROM WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT BASEBALL, DIFFERENT NUMBERS, AND AS A FAN, DO YOU THINK THAT THE MARINERS SHOULD BE A FRONTRUNNER IN THE AL WEST THIS SEASON?

A: My son, Isaac, and I were just talking about this at breakfast because he lives in Seattle. Everybody agrees and I agree that the Mariners' front office has done a fantastic job. On the other hand, it remains true that they overperformed last year. I think they gave up more runs than they scored and still won 85 games. So, there's something like a nine-game overperformance there. Historically, the great majority of teams that overperform by that margin relapse the next season. And also, they've had a tremendous improvement for two or three years in a row. And historically, the great majority of teams that make that kind of improvement at some point have to take a consolidation step. I think the Mariners are a tremendous organization and I think they're getting really close to being on the same level as the Angels. But I think that this is a consolidation year. They'll play at a similar level to last year, but not better. And the team that will take a step forward in the division this year is Oakland.

Q: REALLY? BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE OAKLAND VERY HIGH ON YOUR "YOUNG TALENT" LIST.

A: I've noticed that. Yeah. I don't understand that. Sometimes, some formulas don't work.

Q: ARE YOU SERIOUS?

A: When I look at Oakland, I see a lot of young talent there. It didn't show up in the survey.

Q: CAN YOU MAKE A JUDGEMENT LIKE THAT ABOUT A "CONSOLIDATION YEAR" WHEN THERE ARE ABOUT 21 OF THE 25 GUYS FROM THE ROSTER THAT STARTED 2008 WHO ARE NO LONGER WITH THE MARINERS? I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSONNEL. IS THAT GOING TO IMPACT THE NUMBERS?

A: No, because it's always different. Whenever you see a team that's won 61 games in one year and 85 games a year later, it's always different personnel. But nonetheless, the great majority of time, you're going to see it more difficult the next year after that.

Q: WHY?

A: I'm in danger of getting in trouble here. When you bring in players, you may bring in a lot of players who have a good year. But when you've got a 61-win team, you don't owe anybody nothin'. You can tell everybody there "Perform, or get out!" But when you bring in new players and they perform for you, you're in a different position. And maybe it's a break for the Mariners that Russell Branyan chose to go somewhere else. Maybe that's a break because then you can try somebody else there. But in general, that becomes a problem because the guys who played better for you last year, you owe it to them to let them fail in a way that you didn't before. When you lose 101 games, you don't owe anybody nothin'.

In other words, it's tougher to win when there are expectations. How do you tell somebody like Franklin Gutierrez he has to fight for playing time - should he struggle - when he had one of the great all-time defensive seasons last year? Will Ichiro and Chone Figgins produce the way both did last season? What if Felix Hernandez has an off-year?

On the other hand, there are certainly players here with plenty to prove. Hello Milton Bradley, Casey Kotchman and, yes, Ken Griffey Jr. It should be an interesting year.

Tonight's lineups:

Texas Rangers (4-8-1)
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29 Julio borbon (L) CF
10 Michael young 3B
32 Josh hamilton (L) LF
27 Vladimir guerrero DH
17 Nelson cruz RF
19 Chris davis (L) 1B
21 Jarrod saltalamacchia (S) c
14 Joaquin arias 2B
1 Elvis andrus SS
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39 Scott Feldman RHP


Seattle Mariners (5-7-1)
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51 Ichiro (L) RF
9 Chone Figgins (S) 2B
15 Milton Bradley (S) LF
24 Ken Griffey Jr. (L) DH
4 Jose Lopez 3B
13 Casey Kotchman (L) 1B
21 Franklin Gutierrez CF
32 Rob Johnson C
2 Jack Wilson SS
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35 Ian Snell RHP


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